Well, those of us with BMW diesels anyway?
Tax based emissions (co2 or Nox) changes? Resale values? The true end of diesel?
Fascinating to watch, hopefully not expensive
Printable View
Well, those of us with BMW diesels anyway?
Tax based emissions (co2 or Nox) changes? Resale values? The true end of diesel?
Fascinating to watch, hopefully not expensive
Great excuse to mess around with the CO2 bands to recoup some of the lossed revenue due to the cheeaap tax!Quote:
Originally Posted by fraser5454
think wrong forum :hehe!:
Has nothing to do with anywhere else in the world but America.
They're recalling 11m cars worldwide, so far. I would assume it will turn out not just VW are at this.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnC
This was goin to happen sooner or later. Attention will turn to other brands, Id say there is lots of nervous manufacturers waiting to see how this pans out.
Death to diesel I say!
It means my m3 is now the tree huggers car of choice [emoji13][emoji13][emoji13]
In fairness all those stupid regulations asking manufacturers to reduce C02/NOX etc regularly (Yes we need regulations, but not to an unrealistic level), the technology is simply not there. Yes you can reduce a bit there and there, add a filter up here and down here, but if you look at cars today, they do a little bit better in terms of pollution compared to what they were doing 30 years ago.
My 17 years old 540i designed over 20 years ago does pollute a little bit more than a 2015 M5 with the same engine size. Not that much really.
There is no miracle, run on water, hydrogen, or else to be discovered yet, but petrol/diesel combustion engines doing almost no Co2/Nox emissions, is never going to happen. No way real around it.
Yep, lots of nervous manufacturers I bet! I would be surprised if this was isolated. Bound to affect global environmental perceptions, and subsequent taxes, towards diesel I reckon. That said Diesel engines are hard wearing and economical engines so there will be plenty of debate. Time to get a Lambo!
However you neglect the point that todays M5 makes nearly twice the power of your 540i whilst producing less emmissions and using half the amount of fuel.Quote:
Originally Posted by GERMANIKS
Things have moved on a fair bit.
For arguments sake if bmw were doing this also. That would mean chains, swirl flaps and this. How many would have faith left in the brand at that point?
Well yeah the addition of turbos in petrol engines in recent years at BMW changed a good few things alright, but normally aspirated engines, if you compare them from 10-20 years ago, not much difference in emissions/amount of fuel.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoktorB
As for the fuel consumption being half of my 540i, you are way too optimistic, see this thread here from M5 owners. These are US figures, so a little bit different from UK. You will be surprised.
In fact exactly same consumption as my 540i. 14 MPG UK in the city and 26 MPG UK on the motorway. I do the same, even 30 MPG at 70 Mph.
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=795077
I wonder what they did i.e how was the car fooling emissions tests. And how did it recognise it was being tested.
Afaik it's just the 3.0 v6 tdi at the moment!
Has a special ecu that detects status of the car, speed etc and so when it detects it is stationnary basically it runs the engine in degraded mode. As soon as you drive away engine kicks back to life and produce 40 times more nox emissions.Quote:
Originally Posted by HealyC
According to BBC last night, the Americans tested an X5 in 'real world' conditions and found the emission levels to be the same or less than their regulation levels. So that meant there was no defeat device or software recognising test parameters. VW's defeat software recognised test parameters and switched over and then switched off or whatever for 'real world' driving.
Sent from my WT19i using Tapatalk 2
In the U.S. They use a rig and plug in device to OBD port when they are checking the emissions. When the car is on the rig and hooked up then the car knows that the emissions test is being carried out, it triggers an emissions friendly running mode. This article suggests that it is due to the rig being used that the non-driven wheels are stationary:Quote:
Originally Posted by HealyC
http://jalopnik.com/understanding-the-test-mode-that-let-vw-trick-the-emiss-1732175835
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2015/09/22/the-tech-behind-how-volkswagen-tricked-emissions-tests/
Good news, fingers crossed BMW weren't at it too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
BMW knows best :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by fraser5454
Some news article in the last day or two actually pointed out they tested a X5 as well as VW in the process and that the X5 was actually more or less the same while being stopped or while on the road, so no issue there.
So it seems that the scandal is already spreading to other manufacturers...bmw share price down 6% - apparently an X3 20d was 11 times over the European limit for air pollution!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah seen that. Madness. More to follow obviouslyQuote:
Originally Posted by 318 iS Cosmos
Is this a diesel only thing or is it possible they pulled the same trick with petrols?
Looks to be a one off and more then likely a fault with the x3 no rigging software was found and a variety of other bmws were tested and well within limitsQuote:
Originally Posted by 318 iS Cosmos
How can BMW meet the limits with no rigging and VW are 40 times over the limit when they are tested? That's what puzzles me.
The main problem imo is the limit is too strict in the first place they are pushing manufacturers into a corner were they are resorting to desperate measures over complicating engines with complex designs destined for massive (exspensice) failure
As for how bm can do it and vw can't absoluletly no idea that's a question for the lead engineer's
http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/872595/bmw-issues-statement-concerning-the-vw-diesel-engine-scandal/
Or how a simple article in a newspaper not backed up by the actual regulated test details can wipe out 8% of a company value within minutes :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiem74
Yeah diesels produce less CO2, 10-15% or so; but they produce worse pollution. Why are the EU and others pushing diesels so much; make manufacturers plant more trees and stick with petrol! :)
Pretty simple really.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel.ranter
VAG engine technology is easily 5 years behind anything BMW is doing.
But as well as that, with BMW being in a different market segment than VW, there will be a larger budget for to BMW to build an engine i.e. BMW engines will cost more per unit therefore there is the opportunity to assign cost to build in or develop the necessary technology to meet emmisions legislations whilst still improving performance. The price point of a VW engine may not have allowed for the technology to have been included hence why VAG opted for what they though may have been the more cost effective option for them.
But x 40 times the difference John? What exactly is significantly different VW v BMW? They both use direct injection, EGR, DPF, a Turbos, Calalytic Converters, NOx sensors, etc.
I don't buy it that BMW is 5 years ahead, they can't even get something as basic as a timing chain right, after years of glaring failures across multi-generational models (e6x/e9x and F1x/F3x).
On top of that BMW engines seem to have been consistently pushing out more power per litre (or cc) than the equivalent VW, yet if VW were to maintain the required level of emissions their cars would become undriveable due to the subsequent power loss in meeting required NOx levels.
Interesting too are the stories emerging on the back room agreements between Cameron & Merkel on deferring changes on emission requirements. The heat is coming on now!
The under specification of timing chains is more of an example of pushing the limits of technology. Saving mass within an engine is critical to producing power from smaller displacements and increasing efficiency.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel.ranter
BMW's core engine design must be far more advanced. The mechical, unseen, parts of an engine have as much to do with the efficiency and production of power than any of the bolt on electrical components. The design of heads, valvetrain, pistons, cranks, lubricition system and cooling systems all play a massive part in the engines ability to produce power. More efficient gas flow thorugh an engine allows for more effiecient and controlled fuel burn. Controlling and efficienctly burning the fuel allows for the easier control of emisons. If you already have a very effiecient engine from a mechanical perspective then it is easier for the electronic to control the emisions. (As you know electrical engineering is far inferior to anything mechanical ;) :p )
It could very well be that VAG have been relying on the electronics too heavily to acheive emmisions targets and they have been allowing their core engine design to lag. I dont know VAG too well but afaik their 4-pot dervs havent changed much in 10 years or more bar the inculsion of more bolt-on electronics whereas, as you know, the modern BMW engines are nealry incomparable to the engines from the E39 and E46 era. I myself was even suprised to see the emchanical differences in the M62 and the N62 V8's - I assumed the blocks were the same but they
For years BMW have been able to lead the way with power and performance of normal mass produced cars through the use of natural aspiration whilst their competitiors had to use forced induction (eg Audi) or larger displacments (eg Mercedes).
As said BMW have a larger budget per engine unit to spend on the materials, higher spec components, more advanced electrical controls.
I'm trying my best not to say that VAG, as I've alwasy said, are just pants and more a product of clever marketing making you prioritise the notion of quality above the bare nuts and bolts of how the car performs.
Here is Wired Magazine's explanation as to how BMW & Mercedes can meet the requirements, Urea. Can't say that I've heard of anybody topping this off or seen it pop up in bmwfans.info or forums...
http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-owners-arent-going-like-fixes-diesels/
Quote:
he standard way of making a diesel run cleanly is to use selective catalytic reduction, a chemical process that breaks NOx down into nitrogen and water. Part of that process includes adding urea to the mix. The super effective system can eliminate 70 to 90 percent of NOx emissions, and is used by other diesel manufacturers like Mercedes and BMW. The downside is that it adds complication to the system, and cost—$5,000 to $8,000 per car. And you need to periodically add the urea-based solution to your car to keep it working.
More on that Urea angle:
http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-fool-epa-couldnt-trick-chemistry/
EDIT:
Getting there....it looks like BMW use more sophisticated exhaust gas recirculation technology but area migrating towards a Urea based solution.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-other-manufacturers-deny-cheating
Quote:
The spokesman explained that BMW UK’s diesel engines achieved compliance with the latest EU6 emissions standards either by use of a urea injection system – as fitted to the X5 used in the original WVU test – or via engine technology.
“With regard to urea additives, there is a small number of vehicles that we now offer with this technology, namely: 520d GT, 730d and 740d and X5/X6 diesel variants.
“All other BMW diesel engines in the UK achieve the EU6 requirements through measures inside the engine, exhaust gas recirculation and NSC [NOx Storage Catalyst] technology.
“The weight of the vehicle also has a bearing on this, which is why BMW’s lightweighting technologies also have an important part to play,” he added.
Nice simple read the this (suits me fine) on the topic they will do well to survive this scandal
http://www.thejournal.ie/volkswagen-explainer-2351603-Sep2015/?utm_source=email
I've come across urea being mentioned in relation to the 35d,I dont even know if my car has a tank of it or where it is :tounge:
From the Journal:
He he! GermanQuote:
“We had no cause for suspicion,” John German, from the ICCT, said in an interview with Bloomberg.
Is Urea the same as AdBlue?
The new Mercedes Sprinter has it.
Yup, same stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by RossYB
They will all have it soon. New X5 and Q7 have it, I'll just have to piss in there tanks now at every service :rolleyes: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by RossYB
Adblue is around years now in the commercial world, commercial vehicles imho lead the way in emissions regulations and most of there diesel technology is years ahead of passenger vehicles. When I say commercial vehicles I mean HGVs not glorified car/vans.
This is true, and now DPR systems are appearing in HGV's that have taken things to a new level.Quote:
Originally Posted by HealyC
There is now an ad blue system available on some modern VW diesels, not sure if there's much point given the current situation
Sent via my Telegraph machine using morse code