Another What Car thread

With the e60 mileometer now reading in to the 130k's and with the UK import situation likely to get a little messier at least after year end I've spent a few idle lock-down moments contemplating replacements.

A chat with Captain Sensible highlighted that it would hard to go wrong with a late F10 520d M-Sport, EU6 compliant, with a fairly modest mileage. These are stonking value from the UK at the moment if you buy it right, the B48 seems to be holding up reasonable well and shouldn't cost a great deal in either standing or running costs as we go through the next years with e Green Party influenced government. The low costs would contribute a few bob to a year round use weekend car (nothing firm on what that might be but not the subject matter here). The Captain made a good case. There is an assumption here that said Green influence doesn't demonize EU6 diesel at a faster rate than newer EU emissions standards will. Its true that a 520d is about as good as it gets in its class for the next while with CO2 and NOx given that WLTP figures are generally having a negative impact on emissions values and therefore in some cases emissions bands, etc. Its fair to say that a 520d would be well up to the job and is a generally pleasant place to be. Late ones have a decent standard spec and sufficient creature comforts for the role.

Older petrols though, generally have NOx emissions that compare well with EU6 diesels, at least as far back as EU4 compliant cars, further in many cases. Against their contemporaries in diesel they really shine. So, I've found a couple of older cars that would cost less than the 520d but have notably higher running costs. We'll come to the running costs later.

2008 - e63 630i Sport manual, LCI, low miles, from a main dealer and AUC.
2009 - e60 530i M-Sport with a very nice spec, ticking a good few boxes in both the needs and wants categories, from a dealer.
2010 - f10 528i SE - modest miles, good spec, an M-Sport spec in almost all but name, from a dealer.

None of these are cheap for cars that are at least 10 years old but I have a car allowance that would cover TCO costs. The slight price differences between them are not to be a limiting factor. The purchase cost difference compared to a 2016 520d is probably €4-6k less but over 3 years and 45k miles, comparing TCO (including servicing, maintenance, depreciation, consumables and fuel - based on experience and calculation) then the cost advantage swings to the 520d by between €2750-3500 per year. Not a lifechanging, but also not an insignificant amount.

One advantage that the e63 could have is that it could play both the roles of daily and weekend car easily, given that initially, at least, the weekend car would be my existing e63 if I went in th direction of the 520d.

Thoughts? What way would you go with these choices? Maybe, lets keep it to these choices for the moment, so lets not go the route of suggesting M2's, M3's, M4's, M5's, M6's, etc. :)

I spent a lot of time looking at E60 and F10 petrol replacements for my E90. In the end, what put me off was the injector related problems of the N53 engine. I also looked at earlier N52 engined E60s but all were in rag order. I then considered a trip to the UK to buy a F10/F11 535i with the N55. In the end, I gave in to diesel and bought an E53 X5 M57 instead!

If I were to have gone with a diesel F10/F11, I would have stretched to the B47 as reliability seems to be much improved over the N47.

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Originally Posted by ian-909

I would have stretched to the B47 as reliability seems to be much improved over the N47.

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Apologies, typo on the original post, a 520d would, of course be a B47, not B48.

Fair point on the N53 weaknesses. The last 5 years with the existing 530i has me mentally prepared for the possibility. Hopefully not tempting fate by saying that I've had no injector or HPFP issues thus far. 530d/535d's are very tempting but pre-EU6 NOx levy costs would rule one out and a 2016 example is probably a greater than 30% uplift on a same age 520d price and nearly 50% on TCO, so would probably impact the "fiscal space" of the weekend car, although TCO over 3 years would still be less than the older options.

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Originally Posted by dergside

...would probably impact the "fiscal space" of the weekend car...

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The greatly reduced practicality of the E63 would prevent me from using it as a combined daily/weekend car. If running one rather than two of these cars makes more ‘fiscal sense’, would it be worth looking at a F06 640i N55 Gran Coupe as the one car to do both?

The practicality bit isn't too much of an issue since we have no kiddies, etc. to accommodate and Mrs D's daily (a Golf estate GT) is a decent enough alternative for lugging stuff to the recycling centre, etc. Having said that, I don't have anything against the more practical alternatives. A few folks that have been knocking around these forums for a while will know that the manual gearbox in the 630i is big part of the temptation of that car for me. I did a deal on a 2005 manual back in 2012 but the partner of the seller totalled it the day after we shook hands on a deal and I've had a faint hankering for one since. They are a rare beast, especially as AUC.

The 640i is an interesting curve-ball idea, and I do like the f12. The only petrol 640 option on the VRT Calculator is an f12 SE and VRT seems to be a bit stiff. An EU6 2015 640d would only be a little more for VRT. Either is approx 5x the VRT of the e63.

F10 528 boss. Turbo goodness!

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Originally Posted by dergside

The practicality bit isn't too much of an issue since we have no kiddies, etc. to accommodate and Mrs D's daily (a Golf estate GT) is a decent enough alternative for lugging stuff to the recycling centre, etc. Having said that, I don't have anything against the more practical alternatives. A few folks that have been knocking around these forums for a while will know that the manual gearbox in the 630i is big part of the temptation of that car for me. I did a deal on a 2005 manual back in 2012 but the partner of the seller totalled it the day after we shook hands on a deal and I've had a faint hankering for one since. They are a rare beast, especially as AUC.

The 640i is an interesting curve-ball idea, and I do like the f12. The only petrol 640 option on the VRT Calculator is an f12 SE and VRT seems to be a bit stiff. An EU6 2015 640d would only be a little more for VRT. Either is approx 5x the VRT of the e63.

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Fair enough. There’s great value to be had in E63s here at the moment but the manuals are seldom seen alright.

How about this F12 640i SE, 43k miles, no VRT to worry about? I’m sure there would be room to negotiate on price:

https://www.donedeal.ie/view/23593095 BMW 6-Series New Model 640i, 2011

It’s a nice spec alright, despite being an SE, but not sure I could live with a cloth top as a main driver. As soft top convertibles go it’s defo one of more refined ones, but 15-20k miles per year in one could be wearing.

What's the budget Diarmuid?

I know its not listed, but possibly a F10 535i? I actually regret not considering one and am pondering a G30 540i at the moment (non GPF of course!).

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Originally Posted by eamo

F10 528 boss. Turbo goodness!

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The 528i is a 3.0 n53 - 258bhp of silky sixness :)

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Originally Posted by James Bond Junior

What's the budget Diarmuid?

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Not a fixed budget but a 520d would go to about €18k landed with all paid, the other 3 range from about €11.5k to €14k. The idea would be to spend more on a newer car in the expectation of lower standing and running costs (and notably lower TCO) or less on an older one to partially offset higher standing and running costs on the assumption that there's a little more to tickle your interest, like the sound of a straight 6, compared to a 520d.

The 535i has crossed my mind, but they're fairly highly prized, and priced, in the UK and VRT is stiff enough. A 2016 M-Sport is a fairly rare beast and will top €30k on the road. Even a 2012 will stand you more than a 2016 520d, so you have the higher cost upfront, and the higher running costs. The spreadsheet says TCO would run to about €5k a year more than a 520d. Captain Sensible is troubled by that :)

I think a late 520d would be hard to ignore. It’ll be the newest, probably highly specced and will still be less that 10 years old when you’re done with it so should be easier to rehome than something ~15 yrs old

How about a 4 Gran Coupe? Very spacious and with the rear seats down it will swallow a huge amount. We found our one great last year for clearing out the house and trips to the dump.

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Originally Posted by JohnH

I think a late 520d would be hard to ignore. It’ll be the newest, probably highly specced and will still be less that 10 years old when you’re done with it so should be easier to rehome than something ~15 yrs old

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Captain Sensible appreciates your support John, he was beginning to feel a tad alone :)

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Originally Posted by James Bond Junior

How about a 4 Gran Coupe? Very spacious and with the rear seats down it will swallow a huge amount. We found our one great last year for clearing out the house and trips to the dump.

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Ex UK, a 2016 420d M-Sport would land for about €3-4k more than a same age and miles 520d M-Sport. While I like the look of the GC, even at the same money I'd choose the 5 every time. As I said in the first post, late F10's are astonishing value from the UK at the moment.

Do you not already have an E63 630i - why consider another one ?

The pre-lci's are serious value at the moment and the price difference between one of them and an LCI is quite substantial - certainly more than enough to make up for the immoral motor tax rate. Relatively low mile/well maintained E63's seem to be selling fast - I've been keeping an eye on 3 different ones and they have all been marked as sold within a week....:)

Absolutely true Big H, yes I have one and yes they're an awful lot of car for the money here if you find a nice one, a not too difficult task yet, I've been trying to tell you all that for the past couple of years! If I went the 520d route I'd be happy to hold on to the current 630i as the weekend car.

The current e63 is in fine fettle and has been mostly a seasonable use car. Its at about 125k km's so no real concerns for the future there. The 630i I mentioned is an LCI - so a little more power (N53 vs. N52 - yep, I know the risks of an N53), a manual - rare, only 35 2008 manuals sold in the UK, making it quite desirable to me, and a secondary consideration is that the LCI CO2 figure would drop roadtax from €1494 for mine to €750 - taking a little pain out of turning it from a seasonal car to a year round one.

Would another option be a manual swap on your existing E63?

:)

You should have seen John Roche's face a couple of years ago when I suggested just such a thing when the torque convertor on the e39 530i was throwing a wobbly. The words that followed reinforced the message that his face had led with!

TBH - re-reading your original post D, a late F10 520d M-Sport as you said absolutely makes sense.

They are a lovely car indeed and the M Sports have aged will imo - the Touring's more so !

You have other cars to fulfil weekend/sunny summer days duties so put the tax/fuel savings into one of them. It also won't depreciate massively and will be a relatively easy sell on in a few years time (unlike some of your other suggestions)....:)

BTW - a work colleage brought in a sensible mileage 2016 520D M Sport (manual) from Sytner earlier this year and had it cleared for c. €16k - he said they were excellent to deal with !

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Originally Posted by Big H

BTW - a work colleage brought in a sensible mileage 2016 520D M Sport (manual) from Sytner earlier this year and had it cleared for c. €16k - he said they were excellent to deal with !

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That seems like seriously good value. I've checked Styner website just now and their cheapest 2016 520D is £17.5K. Around £14K for a 2014-2015.
He did well to clear one on Irish plates for €16K

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Originally Posted by Big H

...... (unlike some of your other suggestions)....:)

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You may have a point there!

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Originally Posted by ecooney

He did well to clear one on Irish plates for €16K

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True - as it was a manual, they had it sitting around for a while so were eager to shift it on. The exchange rate was very favourable earlier this year too remember.

It may not have been exactly 16k, but certainly started with €16,XXX

To me, it seems little sense to move to an '08/09 - yes mentally the tax will feel like a great saving but you'd be moving from cars that you know well to an unknown and I bet the ROI is 5-7 years when considering the tax difference!

The 530i & 630i that you have are very hard to replace without spending considerable sums. I, too, convinced myself that I'd be happy with a 520d - one test drive later and I realised how wrong I was. I test drove a 141D 530d wagon which was a fantastic car but it would have cost me over €2500/year newer to change and to go from petrol to a diesel with similar mileage.

The ONLY BMW that is not diesel, is reasonably desirable and the man maths seems to work on is getting a 67 or 68 plate 530e M Sport and there are tons for sale. If you can find a good deal on a 68 plate, the vrt is pretty much the same price as 67 plate due to how they value it. A late 2018 can be had for €28/29k landed which I feel is great value.

Otherwise, a Lexus GS300h worked from a man maths perspective!

Mark - I know exactly what you mean about the 520d thing. That's what concerns me a little. Its why I ended up with this 530i in 2015, having spent the previous 9 months in a very nice spec f10 520d SE. In fact the proceeds of the 520d bought both the e60 and e63.

The thing is that as time progresses, and car lifecycles move on, an equivalent age/mileage but more desirable (M-Sport) spec costs significantly less than both the 520d cost in 2014 and the combined cost of equivalent models of the other cars.

Experience, with both the current 530i and more than my share of other bigger engined cars over many years, says that the 530i, or equivalent, does and will pretty much continue to use the car allowance I have. That's not especially a problem, that's what the allowance is for, but when you calculate, on the same basis, that a 2016 520d M-Sport would use just half of it then you have to stop and think if there is any rationality in the older cars, or you are putting a huge premium on the user experience of the bigger engines cars.

And then you find something like this - https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...ice-asc&page=4

:)

36% VRT and E2350 per annum tax. You'd want to really want it....

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifi...coupe/10431171
6 Series? E750 a year tax is reasonably palatable.

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Originally Posted by James Bond Junior

You'd want to really want it....

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I will admit that the 550i example was a bit tongue in cheek.

I should point out though, that in 2010 the RRP for the SE here in Ireland was around €95k and the options on this example would probably add €15-20k to that. With VRT paid the price on the road represents about a 15% residual value. Anyone think that this car is 85% used?

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Originally Posted by dergside

I will admit that the 550i example was a bit tongue in cheek.

I should point out though, that in 2010 the RRP for the SE here in Ireland was around €95k and the options on this example would probably add €15-20k to that. With VRT paid the price on the road represents about a 15% residual value. Anyone think that this car is 85% used?

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Loving the man maths! :D

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Originally Posted by James Bond Junior

Loving the man maths! :D

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Hey, if that's a capital offence I'll have company in front of the firing squad :)

On the other hand, the math of a 520d actually stands up to scrutiny :)

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Originally Posted by dergside

Mark - I know exactly what you mean about the 520d thing. That's what concerns me a little. Its why I ended up with this 530i in 2015, having spent the previous 9 months in a very nice spec f10 520d SE. In fact the proceeds of the 520d bought both the e60 and e63.

The thing is that as time progresses, and car lifecycles move on, an equivalent age/mileage but more desirable (M-Sport) spec costs significantly less than both the 520d cost in 2014 and the combined cost of equivalent models of the other cars.

Experience, with both the current 530i and more than my share of other bigger engined cars over many years, says that the 530i, or equivalent, does and will pretty much continue to use the car allowance I have. That's not especially a problem, that's what the allowance is for, but when you calculate, on the same basis, that a 2016 520d M-Sport would use just half of it then you have to stop and think if there is any rationality in the older cars, or you are putting a huge premium on the user experience of the bigger engines cars.

And then you find something like this - https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...ice-asc&page=4

:)

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It depends on how much importance you put on low speed NVH and also general engine character. As I said, I did all the maths and had myself convinced but the 520d just didn't do it, certainly not when we're talking about the amounts of money that a 2016 520d costs! There is a lovely (albeit high mileage) 08 730i for sale at the moment with comfort seats, much nicer place to spend your time! It does sound like your mind is made up on the 520d though, if so just go for it.

Out of interest - do your man maths include all costs i.e. not just fuel and tax but depreciation and likely repairs. Also the risk factor that, if you've put ~17k into a car and it drops a gearbox (or a timing chain..) you're going to be invested so will have to foot the bill. If your 530i drops a major failure tomorrow, you are not stuck with a massive sunk investment that you have to protect...

I wish there were a glut of 6 cylinder petrols @ about 5-7 years old because that's what I'd be buying but there just isn't. It's a shame but I feel I'll be stuck in "old petrols" for some years..

Firstly, yep, the TCO figures, I've calculated cover purchase cost, 3 years worth of road tax, maintenance, repairs, consumables (tyres, etc.), fuel and a ballpark residual value - all calculated back to a price per mile, based on 3 years/45k miles. Same rules apply to all that I've compared so maintenance and repairs calculated for an older car are estimated a little higher per year than a fresher younger diesel. That's just using the accumulated experience of >20 year and 650k miles of BMW experience.

On NVH - I see your point, but if the main role of the 520d is to do a decent job of the 30 minute commute twice a day rather than a late night 250 mile non-stop run to the tip top of Donegal then your level of tolerance of NVH with a 4 pot diesel is different. In this scenario then the existing 630i or similar would deal with NVH where it counts.

In an ideal world I'd keep on buying good value 6-7 year old straight six petrols, but like you said, that's not a realistic option in the times in which we live, and not going to get a whole lot better. Given todays apparent government formation then it could get worse even more quickly.

The 520d approach isn't a foregone conclusion here, in fact just before reading this post I was looking at this - https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...e=60000&page=4 and checking it on the VRT Calculator. However, it does make a strong real world argument.

Diarmuid, that 335i looks stunning and the DCT is a rare option on these (if the ad is correct).

I still can't get over the distinct lack of F3x petrol variants for sale on our shores, everything is still diesel unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by 318 iS Cosmos

I still can't get over the distinct lack of F3x petrol variants for sale on our shores, everything is still diesel unfortunately.

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A legacy (maybe the only one) of the last Green influenced government. Can't wait to find out what they've got in store for us this time around. I'm sold on the need for change, but I think we can expect it to hurt.....