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Thread: Ireland Declares Climate Emergency

  1. #121
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    I can only read the first paragraph because of the paywall, but now that car prices (generally, not specifically EV) have stopped defying gravity we're back at a stage where anyone shocked by a significant value drop in year 1 of ownership has probably never bought a brand new car before. Very few members of the public sell a car at a year old, so to some extent the residual value at that age is irrelevant, other than its use for a sensational piece of journalism. How depreciation averages per year over 3 or 4 years is a more relevant measure, and so far there is nothing to suggest that EV's will perform notably worse than near equivalent ICE models.

    I see people at work that have moved in to EV's in the past year or two, many typically wouldn't have bought new in the past, so they've probably spent more than they usually would, and experiencing a depreciation pattern they would previously not have been exposed to. Whatever about a short term deviation from normal depreciation patterns, it was always inevitable that patterns would eventually somewhat align with alternatively fuelled vehicles.

    Given the uncertainty, about the lifespan and long-term degradation of battery's, and their current replacement costs, its likely that as they age they may drop below the ICE equivalents. Over time, its possible that battery replacement costs will fall, or repair methods will emerge, that prolong their lives and moderates the picture a bit.

    Technical developments and economies of scale of increasing volume are already reducing the premium for EV over ICE, at the same time that battery ranges and charging infrastructure have been improving - Tesla's pricing policy. for evidence. I can see either new or extended subsidies on new EV's or tax policy acting on ICE cars over the medium+ term skewing the chart. This will continue. A lot of these things will be enough for plenty of people to make the move to EV.

    I suspect that many here are aware enough of car technologies to be enthusiastic for developments, but also cautious to the risks and alternatives. Most people here tend to buy used rather than new anyway, so we may be a bit slower to adopt for any combination of those reasons.

    With 3 years of plug-in running just completed, my experience its both effective and cost effective. On the commute and short runs, its very efficient and about 50% more economical in the whole as the 6 pot 530i that went before it, with fairly similar power, etc. Other than a charging port processor that I've commented on in another thread, its been pretty much faultless and servicing and maintenance costs have been low. The logical comparison is with a 520d. Its about a draw in many respects, but the 530e has 60 extra BHP and better performance. The only noticeable complaint is it sounds like a 4 cylinder, but a 520d wouldn't solve that.
    Current: BMW 530e M-Sport - '17, BMW 630i Sport auto - '07, BMW 325i Coupe - '93, BMW Z4 2.5si Auto - '07, '90 BMW 316i Lux.

    Previous: BMW 328i Coupe - '96, BMW 530i SE auto - '07, BMW 530i Sport auto - '02, BMW 318i SE Touring - '07, BMW 330Ci Sport - '04, BMW 520d SE - '11, BMW 523i SE - '00, BMW 328i SE Touring - '00, BMW 523i SE - '97, BMW 323i SE - '98, 330Ci - '00, 325i Coupe - '93, 318Ci - '01, 316iSE - '98, 325iSE 2dr - '91, 320i Conv - '91, 325i Coupe - '92, 320i 2dr - '91.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by dergside View Post
    Technical developments and economies of scale of increasing volume are already reducing the premium for EV over ICE, at the same time that battery ranges and charging infrastructure have been improving - Tesla's pricing policy. for evidence.
    I would contradict this by saying the huge influx of (stupidly named) Chinese car manufacturers dumping their (heavily Chinese government subsidised) cars onto the Irish market is driving down the RRP for other manufacturers.

    Tesla's pricing policy (ie. slashing prices) has been driven somewhat by their sales falling below targets and the residual values tanking accordingly. The range lies aren't helping their cause - there's some staggering stories coming out of the US around Tesla's remote service center tactics too.

    I would warrant that the vast majority of new electric cars are PCP (and similarly) financed, hence buyers don't care about resale values due to having the used value at the end of the contract agreed upfront. Those who took out the credit union loan will be in for some shock when they go to trade in their ID4 in 3 years time - the Golf TDI buyer will be pleasantly surprised.

    Talk to anyone in the trade and they won't touch most electric cars over say 6 yo as a trade in - they can't shift them and won't stand over them either from a warranty standpoint. No such thing as a cheap repair on an electric car. Insurers are also waking up to the fact that even minor prangs can bring huge repair bills, hence they carry insurance premiums over their equivalent ICE cousins.

    Look at the prices in auction for electric cars - nobody is touching them, hence major bargains to be had if you're a betting man/woman/they........
    Current Daily: 2008 Lexus GS300 Sport F/L
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  3. #123
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    Great post as always (EDIT: both dergside and Big H!).

    You're definitely right about people probably underestimating depreciation on new cars in general and not just with EVs. However as I understand it an ID3 costs around €40k. If the author of that article is talking about a €15k drop since he bought it, that is nearly a 40% decrease in a year. Surely that is more extreme than usual?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big H View Post
    - the Golf TDI buyer will be pleasantly surprised.
    The EV's have led the return to pre-C-19 residuals, but Golf buyers and others are already getting on that bus, or will be soon. This year, asking prices for 530e's like mine have dropped from a ridiculous figure of thousands over my buying price to one probably only a little less than I paid 3 years ago. There has to be more to lose there before that's back to reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenKane View Post
    However as I understand it an ID3 costs around €40k. If the author of that article is talking about a €15k drop since he bought it, that is nearly a 40% decrease in a year. Surely that is more extreme than usual?
    Only by the standards of a C-19 ripple-effect distorted market of the past few years. Also, assuming he bought it in 2022, it could be anything up to verging on 2 years old. It may not help the journalists story to point that out.

    The EV market, new and used, has some problems to resolve, but that market is here to stay. The industry and trade just needs to figure out how to deal with it. Probably part of that will be more emphasis on a subscription type model, such as short term contracts, PCP or newer forms of financing not yet devised. That will have to work for 2nd, and maybe subsequent owners, because the asset will be on the manufacturers balance sheet if others are reluctant to engage in a traditional trade/retail market (which will accelerate the trend towards manufacturers being more significantly Financial institutions, and manufacturers second). That exposure will probably also help focus the minds of the manufacturers on the reliability and durability issues.
    Current: BMW 530e M-Sport - '17, BMW 630i Sport auto - '07, BMW 325i Coupe - '93, BMW Z4 2.5si Auto - '07, '90 BMW 316i Lux.

    Previous: BMW 328i Coupe - '96, BMW 530i SE auto - '07, BMW 530i Sport auto - '02, BMW 318i SE Touring - '07, BMW 330Ci Sport - '04, BMW 520d SE - '11, BMW 523i SE - '00, BMW 328i SE Touring - '00, BMW 523i SE - '97, BMW 323i SE - '98, 330Ci - '00, 325i Coupe - '93, 318Ci - '01, 316iSE - '98, 325iSE 2dr - '91, 320i Conv - '91, 325i Coupe - '92, 320i 2dr - '91.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by dergside View Post
    Also, assuming he bought it in 2022, it could be anything up to verging on 2 years old. It may not help the journalists story to point that out.
    That's a moot point as the car industry doesn't care if the car is reg'd in Jan or Dec - it goes by the registration date (so they say when you arrive with your car to trade in).

    Quote Originally Posted by dergside View Post
    The EV market, new and used, has some problems to resolve, but that market is here to stay. The industry and trade just needs to figure out how to deal with it. Probably part of that will be more emphasis on a subscription type model, such as short term contracts, PCP or newer forms of financing not yet devised. That will have to work for 2nd, and maybe subsequent owners, because the asset will be on the manufacturers balance sheet if others are reluctant to engage in a traditional trade/retail market (which will accelerate the trend towards manufacturers being more significantly Financial institutions, and manufacturers second). That exposure will probably also help focus the minds of the manufacturers on the reliability and durability issues.
    I agree to an extent on this - taking on a new EV with a comprehensive manufacturers warranty for say 3 years is not an issue - it's the 3 to 6 yo bracket (that a lot of buyers frequent) needs reassurance/guarantee around the complexity of EV's. Yes, many manufacturers will offer eg.8 year battery warranty's, but I have not read one of these and can only assume that there's a myriad of exclusions that could quickly rack up substantial bills. As you say, for people to make the transition, manufacturers need to shoulder some of this risk and like the Japanese warranties of old (remember Mitsubishi offering 8 years warranty & Kia offering 7 year warranties) - I assume they certainly don't do that now on their EV's/Hybrid's.

    Nissan are offering a 241 for a 251 exchange for free at the moment for example, an excellent deal when we see the 1st year depreciation figures listed earlier, but they're certainly not offering it on their EV range - depreciation on the likes of their Ariya must be horrendous one imagines for example.
    Current Daily: 2008 Lexus GS300 Sport F/L
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big H View Post
    That's a moot point as the car industry doesn't care if the car is reg'd in Jan or Dec - it goes by the registration date (so they say when you arrive with your car to trade in).
    True, but the angle on the residual value/time chart looks a bit less dramatic........
    Current: BMW 530e M-Sport - '17, BMW 630i Sport auto - '07, BMW 325i Coupe - '93, BMW Z4 2.5si Auto - '07, '90 BMW 316i Lux.

    Previous: BMW 328i Coupe - '96, BMW 530i SE auto - '07, BMW 530i Sport auto - '02, BMW 318i SE Touring - '07, BMW 330Ci Sport - '04, BMW 520d SE - '11, BMW 523i SE - '00, BMW 328i SE Touring - '00, BMW 523i SE - '97, BMW 323i SE - '98, 330Ci - '00, 325i Coupe - '93, 318Ci - '01, 316iSE - '98, 325iSE 2dr - '91, 320i Conv - '91, 325i Coupe - '92, 320i 2dr - '91.

  7. #127

  8. #128
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    The company I work for uses Hertz for rentals in the US. I'm a member of their Gold program, which means that when you get there you simply pick any car (wide variety of makes/models) in the Gold area and away you go. Quite a lot of them are Model 3's, and some Polestar's. While I've been curious, I've tended to stick with choosing from the ICE options because I'm not sure what would happen if I needed to charge one (where, how to pay, what state of charge is expected bringing it back, etc.). The numbers of them in Boston wasn't huge, but I was in San Fran just before Christmas (2022) and there were loads of them.

    I'm sure that if I had put a bit more thought in to it it would have been fine, but it was something that I just didn't want to expend thought on when dealing with the other aspects of travel and work.
    Current: BMW 530e M-Sport - '17, BMW 630i Sport auto - '07, BMW 325i Coupe - '93, BMW Z4 2.5si Auto - '07, '90 BMW 316i Lux.

    Previous: BMW 328i Coupe - '96, BMW 530i SE auto - '07, BMW 530i Sport auto - '02, BMW 318i SE Touring - '07, BMW 330Ci Sport - '04, BMW 520d SE - '11, BMW 523i SE - '00, BMW 328i SE Touring - '00, BMW 523i SE - '97, BMW 323i SE - '98, 330Ci - '00, 325i Coupe - '93, 318Ci - '01, 316iSE - '98, 325iSE 2dr - '91, 320i Conv - '91, 325i Coupe - '92, 320i 2dr - '91.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by dergside View Post
    The company I work for uses Hertz for rentals in the US. I'm a member of their Gold program, which means that when you get there you simply pick any car (wide variety of makes/models) in the Gold area and away you go. Quite a lot of them are Model 3's, and some Polestar's. While I've been curious, I've tended to stick with choosing from the ICE options because I'm not sure what would happen if I needed to charge one (where, how to pay, what state of charge is expected bringing it back, etc.). The numbers of them in Boston wasn't huge, but I was in San Fran just before Christmas (2022) and there were loads of them.

    I'm sure that if I had put a bit more thought in to it it would have been fine, but it was something that I just didn't want to expend thought on when dealing with the other aspects of travel and work.
    At €0.82 a litre for petrol, why bother with an electric car in a huge country with sporadic charging points (especially outside of the major urban areas) that also has generally much bigger annual mileages than we do......
    Current Daily: 2008 Lexus GS300 Sport F/L
    Current: E39 525i M Sport (Titan Silver)
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big H View Post
    I would contradict this by saying the huge influx of (stupidly named) Chinese car manufacturers dumping their (heavily Chinese government subsidised) cars onto the Irish market is driving down the RRP for other manufacturers.
    Seems that VW have taken a huge leap on this front - just announced that they're knocking €12k off their ID4 in Ireland:

    https://www.independent.ie/life/moto...407120076.html

    “Customers can now purchase an ID.4 from €41,565 after grants – €12,365 cheaper versus the 2023 price."

    I'd be pretty pissed if I just bought a new one last year.....
    Current Daily: 2008 Lexus GS300 Sport F/L
    Current: E39 525i M Sport (Titan Silver)
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